It is understandable that he criticized his classical tradition because of a political passion during the May 4th Movement. They believe that there are feudal traces attached to the classical tradition, so they must be criticized; However, this kind of resistance to politics should not be completely equal to cultural criticism. Of course, the wrong factors in cultural traditions should be criticized, but it does not mean that cultural traditions should be uprooted, and this nation will become a nation without traditions. Culture is the condensation of a nation's spirit and the body of its spirit. A country without its own cultural tradition cannot be called a truly independent country. Although some countries have declined, they are still using their potential cultural consonants to express their own races. This national spirit is a factor of a nation's backbone. During the May 4th Movement, although China suffered foreign aggression, it did not completely lose its independent national status. Is there any reason to commit suicide and bury your own culture? Multi-ethnic countries only have the obligation to carry forward the cultures of all ethnic groups, but have no right to stifle or bury their own multi-ethnic cultures alive. No matter how much people hate the mistakes of a certain regime or how dissatisfied they are with a certain political system, they have no right to kill their cultural traditions with any action while rejuvenating the motherland. Western culture did have an advanced side, advanced science and a developing democratic system during the May 4th Movement. However, cultural traditions and a nation are related by flesh and blood, which is the embodiment of the soul. It is of course necessary to transplant some foreign cultures horizontally to enrich and develop their own culture, but we must never use foreign cultures instead of our own. Losing and forgetting cultural traditions is equivalent to the death of China's soul. Jews have lived in various countries for a long time, but they can still unite the nation and survive all kinds of painful historical disasters precisely because they have their own cultural and religious beliefs. It can be seen that the demise of the country is indeed sad, and the demise of cultural traditions is the real death. We can forgive the blind impulse and ignorance of the May 4th sages about the relationship between language and culture, which is the limitation of their time. However, it is unforgivable for people today to slander, trample and curse their own cultural traditions and worship the ideological trend of western cultural centers. In this way, only western culture is dominant, and its essence and dross flock to it, thinking that the west represents modernization and westernization represents modernization. Modern media not only integrates economy, but also tends to integrate culture. It is difficult for our media to completely separate the two. The mentality of some people who follow the crowd often asks themselves: Is it too late to get married now? Our national tradition is placed in a weak and marginal position, just as flowers and trees can't shine in shady places, and it may become a cultural colony while becoming an economic power over time, which is very sad. Chinese is a new ideographic language, and its musicality reached its peak after the Tang and Song Dynasties. It is one of the few languages in the world that has both visual beauty and high musical hearing. Poetry-reciting is an ancient art of poetry in China. China's poems are rich, vivid and full of life flavor in literal image, and also have the beauty of music. It's a pity that classical poets are aware of the unique function of leveling, but they all say that they only know what it is but don't know why. If we continue to study the metrical pattern of classical poetry with scientific methods and consciously acquire the musicality of poetry, it will certainly bring great development and improvement to today's poetry creation. Unfortunately, we trample on the classical tradition too much and pay too little attention to it, which leads to the fact that the tones of Chinese today are artistic except those popular in the market. Although you don't have to speak music or cadence according to the format, it is always a unique charm of Chinese. You don't have to, but you can't forget. The connotation of art changes with the development of the times, but it is always sad without art. Today, some people claim that China's new poems have their own traditions after nearly a hundred years of westernization. What rules do they put forward in the musicality of poetic language? After analyzing the exquisite internal structure art of classical poetry, what new poetic structure did they propose? We know that classical poetry, as far as metrical poetry is concerned, pays great attention to internal structure, and it has the requirements of inheritance and combination. Therefore, China's classical poems can cover the world, ancient and modern times in just a few dozen words, which is shocking. If we abandon this structure, we will not study it, or even know it, and we will not be able to put forward the structural requirements of new poetry. This poem has neither its own internal structure nor musicality. Can it be said that it has its own tradition? Of course, our new poetry is not without contribution, nor is it getting worse and worse, nor does it mean that the beginning is good and then it is not good. Our new poetry has never found itself, has not established its own tradition, and is still trying to explore, so it is flickering, sometimes it seems to find something, and sometimes it is dark. Now this stage can be said to be quite chaotic and dark. There are many reasons. First of all, when China's new poetry began, the west was in the romantic era, and the structure of western romantic poetry was relatively simple, so it was more convenient for us to learn. After entering modernism, China's poetry in the 1940s should be said to be synchronized with western modernist poetry, and it can still keep up. However, after a long period of closed doors and the tangible and intangible Cultural Revolution, China people's sense of art has become quite numb, and there is little discussion about what is beauty, what is musicality and what is internal structure; At this time, it happened to meet the wave of western postmodernism. Postmodernism is a stage in which the West breaks its own construction from classical romance to modernism and redevelops the new structure of poetry. We suddenly fell into the whirlpool of this strange structure of new poetry. How can you really master the postmodern tradition of your own poetry? It's not even clear if we have our own traditions. It should be said that we have basically not established our own tradition, let alone learn from the western postmodern tradition and establish our own postmodern tradition. So those poets who call themselves pioneers should think about it. Did they put forward some clear rules and norms of poetry? How many poems have you written that can serve as a model for future generations to analyze and learn? If not, they can't claim that China's new poetry has its own tradition in front of Tang and Song poems. Even without tradition, how can we say that new poetry has laid a tradition in my generation? Saying this has nothing to do with the development of new poetry, but a state of mind. Of course, our new poetry is definitely not without contribution, but we have too many regrets; I think we should bravely admit that we don't know its shortcomings, so how can we innovate? I feel that my generation has solved all the problems of writing new poems. I think this is a very irresponsible estimate. Our language is so rough, clumsy, loose and weak, is it worthy of our complacency? Can we still say that the tradition of new poetry has laid the foundation stone in our generation? I think this kind of self-deception is meaningless and is not good for the development of new poetry. Poets should persistently pursue their own poems, and the founder of the new tradition can never do it overnight. Of course, from the1920s to the present, all generations of new poetry writers have made their own contributions, but no poet has become the founder of the new poetry tradition with his own creation and theory. In this case, if you are still complacent, it will be a bit of doing nothing. This is very worrying. As far as English poetry is concerned, poetry writing in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries complies with the requirements of yin and yang, and poets must have sensitive ears; In modernism, it broke the strict requirements of this yin-yang case; But today's American poets still attach great importance to the rhythm and musicality of poetry. Not all poems are good; The musicality of poetry has always been pursued by western poets and readers. Ginsburg's poems are long and short, which are very irregular, but his poems are divided by tone, not by syllable; His poems are written in combination with the rhythm of rock music. When listening to his recitation, you will feel that he is taking another road of musicalization of poetry. Since Williams, American contemporary poetry has demanded to get rid of the British tradition, not to talk about syllables, but to talk about "dun". Robert Bly always recites while playing the guitar. And did the founder of our so-called new poetry tradition think about these problems? Do they use syllables when writing poems? Is it a meal? Is it text? Although Mr. He Qifang and Mr. Bian discussed this issue, they did not reach any conclusion. How can new poetry be called "tradition" unless it can be felt and convinced in musicality and internal structure? Tradition is a very complicated connotation. I just mentioned two aspects: musicality and internal structure. In fact, there are many language problems, such as rhetoric and grammatical structure. Unless these problems are solved and innovated, we can never say that new poetry has its own tradition. It can be said that the charm of Chinese characters has been forgotten by many people today, and even many poets are insensitive to the image, sound collocation and hidden connotation of Chinese characters. Some people feel powerless, but they have not found a solution; Some people don't even feel inadequate, just wriggle about in the language of poetry, or write poems ready to be translated into foreign languages. Or simply call names as an innovation in poetic language. We have long neglected how many cultural and social records are hidden in the colorful structure of Chinese characters in China. So I think we should arouse children's appreciation of Chinese characters from the beginning of Chinese teaching in primary and secondary schools. At least you should have some contact with Shuo Wen Jie Zi. If we jump out of the characteristics of Chinese characters and just speak Chinese in an empty way, it will be difficult for us to improve the Chinese level of the whole people, let alone lay our own poetic foundation. There is a lot of information about China's social life and various aspects at a certain historical stage. Every square character is like an inscription, a book and an abstract painting. We need to be aesthetically sensitive to it. It should be said that only calligraphers still maintain their aesthetic awareness of Chinese characters, and ordinary writers and readers almost equate Chinese characters with symbols of western pinyin. Pinyin characters are phonetic characters, and there are few perceptual things. Although Saussure said that the signifier was emotional, it was only one of his ideals. In fact, can "bird" compare with "bird"? Our word "bird" immediately vividly draws the image of a bird, but what is the big difference between "bird" and "birth"? Can it show the image of a bird? Now I deeply feel my own shortcomings in this respect, so I don't want to hear the self-comforting complacency around me. I think it is this complacency that makes our new poetry make little progress and even go astray for a long time. Therefore, I think that in order to make our new poetry creation have its own tradition, we must first improve the Chinese culture of all our people, and we should develop this wisdom from the time of children's education. This wisdom was very common in ancient China, but it has been submerged for a long time today. You should know that China's words are paintings, but why do we open a book and feel nothing about painting so many words? Is this an improvement? I think this is a big step backwards in culture. When you see that Chinese characters only regard it as an abstract symbol, you are not giving full play to the characteristics of Chinese, but flattening the characteristics of Chinese and restoring it to an abstract symbol of pinyin. It turns out that pinyin letters are so civilized and advanced that they are not. In fact, Chinese characters are the most informative Chinese characters are the most emotional. When you see a smile, you will feel really happy. When I saw a cry, I felt that I was really crying, and then I began to recover my feeling of Chinese characters. But excuse me, which part of our education is arousing our sensitivity to Chinese? No. Only a few experts are doing antique research. I think the accumulation of thousands of years of art and wisdom should not be passed on to our descendants. I feel very sad about this. Chinese characters are asking us to understand and appreciate it, but we have become numb, we won't appreciate our written words, and we won't feel it when writing. At the same time, the connotation of Chinese characters is also developing, but we'd better develop it consciously. Reading poetry seems very popular now, but how many people read it musically? Or use a stage sound to add a sound to a poem without this musicality, as if he were acting. I don't think this can prove that the word itself has such musical beauty. These are redundant ingredients that make you feel uncomfortable. So I don't think the recitation of new poems can be compared with the recitation of ancient poems. Because you can't feel the musical beauty and imagination of words. China's language used to be very particular about pronunciation. For example, the word "car" is sometimes pronounced as "che" and sometimes as "ju". I haven't studied it specifically, just wondering why you said "carbine" but not "carbine". When we study, we read "lessons from the past" instead of "lessons from the past", saying that the original meaning of "cars and BMW" may be a mistake made in the battle; Of course, many people now read "Lessons from the Past"; Another point is that "front-inside-rearview mirror" is very similar to simultaneous voice or double voice; If you read it as "front-car-mirror", it will destroy its sense of music at the same time. Conversely, if you pronounce "BMW plus sweet car" as "BMW plus sweet car", it will also destroy its sense of rhythm. This is my personal random feeling. It's just that I think we should increase our musical awareness of language, so as to understand the ancient people's emphasis on phonology. Now, we only know the rhyme of kotaro oshio, but we are not sure how to pronounce each line smoothly, so we can only feel it. So I wrote many lines. We can only rely on our usual habits, and we cannot put forward art as a conscious pursuit. Besides, the structure of poetry, today, few people can create fascinating structures in poetry and reach a high level. Either straight and straight; Either a hammer in the east and a stick in the west, there is no sense of integrity. If there is difference, there must be a whole to show the beauty of difference; Only when there are ups and downs, twists and turns, and the artistic sense of the internal structure of the hundred rivers returning to the sea can poetry really reach a higher level. In this regard, we have no conscious requirements for ourselves, and we have not found any laws of * * *. I think the linear development of new poetry can't be compared with the ups and downs of ancient poetry. The dual use of ancient poetry has also opened up a new realm. For example, when you talk about the sky, you think of the earth. Isn't that the sudden expansion of space? We can't use such art now, because we dare not even think about it. So at this time, I personally feel that I can't say that new poetry has its own tradition. The establishment of tradition is not empty talk, let alone the existence of a few young and middle-aged poets who have made declarations. The new generation of poets who feel that they have established the tradition of new poetry, I am afraid that when they write poems, they have not considered musicality, internal rhythm and internal structure at all. For them, tradition is just an abstract noun that can be casually installed. Some poets claim that China's new poems have established a tradition in their generation after nearly a hundred years' attempts. I think this sentence is futile. I also admit that China's poets are really trying to seek the new development of new poetry, but in an impetuous mood, they didn't know what China's new poetry lacked at first, and they didn't have any ideas at all. When looking for development, they can only cran their necks to see what's new abroad and want to catch up with this new trend. I want to catch up with the trendy poetry and get into modernization halfway, but I can't. A while ago, I suddenly felt that writing lyric poems was behind, and there was a craze for writing narrative poems. In fact, their narrative poems write down the trivial things in life. They realized that in the post-industrial period and post-modern period, emotional things seemed hard to say in the west, and lyricism had become a satire, so they turned to an anti-lyrical poetic style and began to write narrative poems. They don't realize that narrative, in English, in western hermeneutics and in modern western poetics, does not mean the meaning of a story, but has the essence of history, because they think that history itself is a story, and history is not a record of real things as people think, but a narrative, just like writing a novel, so when writing a narrative poem, it is actually necessary to express a very profound thing. And the so-called narrative poems I have seen rarely involve this depth. Most of them talk about the trivia of city life, but in fact they are vulgar understandings of narrative poems. Just think of it as a new term and don't explore its true connotation. In recent years, we have been fiddling with popular western ideas or nouns, which makes us very confused and confused in our writing. In my opinion, if you don't have your own backbone, your own profound study of poetics, your own summary of tradition, and just fiddling with some new terms, you will definitely not find a way out. We especially like heated debates in the field of poetry. If it's about poetry, I think it's good. But unfortunately, sometimes arguments come from non-poetic factors. I think the recent debate between "intellectual writing" and "folk writing" is ostensibly about poetry, but in fact it is non-poetic, a friction between people and a struggle for power discourse. Don't care about the development of China's new poetry, but strive for the mainstream. In doing so, we have actually lost the true essence of an intellectual. When people say that they are "intellectuals writing", this "intellectual" is derogatory. In fact, those who are denounced as "intellectuals" and those who call themselves "non-intellectuals" are scholars or educated people in some colleges, and are not really "folk". But the essence of intellectuals has been lost. Instead of persistently pursuing poetry theory, we always consider whether our labor has been paid and whether it has become the center of attention. In the field of poetry, the debate about who is the mainstream, who is the tributary, who is the center and who is the edge is not the problem of poetry itself, but the problem of people. There is a lot of room for us to write poems. Whether it is "intellectual writing" or "folk writing", it is neither intellectual writing nor folk writing, and there is a lot of writing space. Why does it have to be binary? I have to say, I can't stop until you can do it. This dual thinking is a great obstacle for us to have a relaxed environment, a tolerant mind and the conscience of intellectuals who explore the truth. I don't think this debate has contributed much to the development of China's new poetry. To my surprise, it has been 30 years since the Cultural Revolution. Why is there such prejudice against intellectuals? In a broad sense, aren't intellectuals members of the people? Is it anti-people? And intellectuals who are too self-righteous also take themselves too seriously. In fact, how many are really amazing? We only have a little knowledge. What is there to be complacent about? So I think this is a kind of narrow-minded and emotional performance. I hope that those who write the history of this poem in the future will not regard this debate as a serious discussion of China's new poetry. In this regard, a reporter from the literary supplement of Taiyuan Daily interviewed me once. I think everyone should have a broad mind. We have a folk complex. We often fiddle with the terms "people", "mass", "popularization" and "folk". When we say these words, there is always a habitual assumption, as if people with no education can be regarded as simple people, as if no education is the premise. I think it's ridiculous, too In a country with universal education and very high cultural literacy, the people are definitely not people who are opposed to intellectuals, nor are they people who have nothing to do with the college. When you think that you are writing a folk song, you use some vulgar words in the language, that is the meaning of folk songs. I think this is an insult to the word "folk". When writing the history of literature in the 1990s, if we overemphasize the so-called dispute between "harmony" and "harmony", it will give people a misunderstanding that the poems in the 1990s are just the works of these two poets. In fact, there is also a business psychology. Toasting each other is a kind of hype, and cursing each other is another kind of hype. This is a deformed propaganda method developed by our commercial society, which has now eroded our academic circles. Mutual praise and abuse are just two sides of the same coin. Therefore, when writing the history of literature, we must carefully analyze these phenomena.
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Wu Sijing: You spoke very well just now. There are some problems that we can bring up for discussion.
Zheng: Yes, everyone has different ideas. Wu Sijing: You don't think China's new poetry has formed its own tradition. You mainly tell new poems to some people, because I have laid a tradition.
Zheng: Right. From the perspective of poetic art, I don't think new poetry has any stereotypes yet.
Wu Sijing: There is a lot of understanding about tradition now. You think that new poetry does not form a complete set of norms like classical poetry, mainly from the artistic perspective of poetry. However, there are other aspects of tradition. For example, the thought, consciousness and connotation of new poetry are still different from those of classical poetry. For example, from Hu Shi's attempt to Guo Moruo's early pursuit of humanistic ideal and personality liberation, and then to the embodiment of national spirit in Ai Qing's poems. In my personal opinion, the connotation of the tradition of new poetry is not limited to whether there is a complete set of rules. From this perspective, new poetry has not formed a relatively standardized thing. Lin Geng, He Qifang and Bian have all discussed the metrical form of new poetry, but neither his nine-character poems nor He Qifang's modern metrical poems have spread. Then there are two views in contemporary poetry circles: some people think that new poetry can be standardized, such as Jin Lu of Southwest Normal University; Others think that it is difficult to standardize new poetry, and it is very unlikely to standardize new poetry with new meter.
Zheng Min: I understand your point of view from two points. First, tradition is not just a formal norm, which I agree with; From the perspective of theme, each era has its own theme, but I don't regard this as a tradition; It is far from tradition, because each era must have different development; Secondly, regarding the pursuit of metrical rules, I think it is impossible for anyone to make a rule, and it is absolutely impossible to do it overnight. I feel lacking, but I can't figure out what to do. I may try some writing myself, but I can't guarantee success. I think we should first realize that poetry cannot be without form. As for the form, it is a big problem that needs time to solve. I sigh that many people, especially young people, have completely given up the form of poetry (poetry is written more freely and more culturally), but I think poetry cannot be separated from the musicality of language, which is the concentrated expression of the musicality of language. If literary creation holds a rough attitude towards the musicality of language, it will be difficult to reach the peak of literature. As for the specific form, there can be many discussions, but first of all, we should pay attention to this problem, and only in this way can we solve it; If you don't pay attention to it at all, there is no hope. A nation's language must have its own natural musical beauty. I don't think I have any problems with you. As for the content, that is, each era has different themes, which seems difficult to establish a tradition. Due to the change of life and environment, some new topics of common concern will arise.
Si Jing: China's new poetry has developed for more than 80 years and accumulated a lot. Whether you like it or not, it does exist. Just like Lu Xun's criticism of the national character, such as Ah Q's spiritual victory method, it is such a tradition that has been passed down from ancient times to the present. In the 80 years of the development of new poetry, some techniques used by many young poets today actually existed during the May 4th Movement. For example, the life stream of narrative poems, the poems written by Kang during the May 4th Movement, are sometimes more life stream than life stream, not poetic.
Zheng Min: I'm not completely different from you, but I think the so-called tradition can rise to the theoretical level. You can't say who wrote the poem. It exists objectively and becomes a tradition. Every day, many people are trying all kinds of things. However, as the cultural tradition of the whole nation, it must have historical penetration.
Wu Sijing: I regard tradition as a river. The achievements of every poet and thinker in every era naturally flow into this river and become a part of tradition itself.
Zheng Min: So today Zhang San wrote a strange poem, which became a tradition. Tomorrow, Li Si also wrote a strange poem, which has become a tradition. ...
Wu Sijing: In fact, this also represents a tendency of poetry creation. If these non-poems and crooked poems constitute an era, it is also an existence that cannot be ignored if we look back after 20 or 30 years. Every poet is a part of tradition or a part of tradition; Numerous poets have integrated into our tradition. This is my personal opinion.
Zheng Min: You are a bit naturalistic. As long as it exists, I have to admit that it is a tradition. I understand that tradition means that you can put it forward from the angle of art, thinking or philosophy, and it is really necessary to do so. Make a certain contribution ...
Wu Sijing: You are talking about fine traditions, and some are miscellaneous traditions. I think tradition is very rich.
Zheng Min: I think your statement is relatively new.
Gu Yanli: Mr Zheng, I have a question, too. In the process of studying the theory of 19 17- 1927 new poetry, I quite agree with Mr. Wu's point of view. I think new poetry is traditional. The tradition you are talking about is viewed from the aspects of art, musicality and the internal structure of poetry. The tradition I'm talking about may be different from yours. For example, from the beginning, Hu Shi advocated writing poems in vernacular Chinese, saying that "poetry has no definite line or line", so the free verse style he created is a tradition for our new poetry. Moreover, Guo Moruo developed the style of free verse initiated by Hu Shi, but Hu Shi took a realistic path, paying attention to stick figure and concrete reasoning, while he publicized the individual life consciousness, which is also a tradition of new poetry and a clue and a way for the development of new poetry.
Zheng Min (laughs): Then I want to ask you a question. As long as it is literature, there will be these things, which has nothing to do with whether new poetry is new or not. Literature, novels and essays are all inseparable from some ideas at that time. This is the theme.
For example, in the spirit of Ah Q, Lu Xun refined the inferiority of a nation and found a perspective on people. As for whether it is traditional or not, I don't think so. But as a tradition of poetry, it should reflect its own characteristics. Personally, I think musicality is indispensable to poetry; Another is that the combination of poetry and language is particularly close, and poetry still has strong requirements for form. Besides, you can't break away from the language tradition in China. It may not be suitable for you to bring other people's things in without analyzing your own language. I think the national tradition is closely related to language. I don't object to everyone saying that every era has its spirit. I mainly look at it from the perspective of history and thinking. Writing more about the subconscious and unconscious, from this perspective, of course, he is also a tradition, because he has opened such a road. But I still think the tradition I said is a little different from yours.
Si Jing: That's what your family said.
Zheng Min: Yes, we are all diverse. But I think the content should not be forgotten to write in Chinese. What pains me most is that many people don't write in Chinese, and the language is particularly Europeanized. I also think the spoken vernacular is very rich. China literature has always been the parallel of spoken language and literary language, but now the tradition of our literary language has been interrupted, I think. Now only spoken English can be spoken. Did you lose something particularly valuable? Western languages are like sounds, some sounds represent some feelings, but our languages are not.
Gu Yanli: What you are talking about is the tradition of finding new poetry from structure, but the tradition of new poetry does not lie in structure. Zheng Min: Why shouldn't we talk about the structure of new poetry? Who stipulated this? This is the time when we are fighting against classical literature and breaking the shackles.
Wu Sijing: This generalization is also very simple and can only represent part of the creation of new poetry.
Zheng Min: For example, Xu Zhimo's Accidental. Originally a love poem, now I think it can be put into many accidental situations. I think the poem "You'd better forget" is of great historical significance. I often say "you'd better forget" now, and I don't want to forget! So I think a poem depends on how you interpret it. I don't want to go back to the strict transition, but it's like going to a tower, you have to go up many steps. Finally, you can walk to the top of the tower or skydive there. Anyway, you have to do something.
Wu Sijing: Your previous analysis of the high-level structure of poetry was very incisive and in place, and it is also very meaningful now. Then do you think the high-level structure of this poem is of universal significance or an important one among many structural forms?
Zheng Min: It's just a structural form. Because it is particularly obvious, I will give it a lift. Take modern music as an example. No musician does not talk about structure when he creates. In the end, you don't say that you are a hammer and stick. We are now free to an indescribable extent, saying that it is a stream of consciousness, but it is not; It is necessary to learn from the West, but after all, our feet are on China people. It pains me to see that we China people have been neglected to such an extent. Now Chinese has completely become an abstract symbol in our eyes, which only represents a certain concept and has no color in itself. I still have a question about our education in China, and I don't care about it at all. I think that modernity, contemporary and ancient times should be opened up, and we can't just learn contemporary in universities. ...
Wu Sijing: Teacher Zheng, the Chinese Poetry Research Center established by our Capital Normal University is a combination of ancient poetry research, new poetry research and poetry theory research in China.
Zheng Min: Anyway, it's very uncomfortable for me to listen to poetry reading now. Everyone shouted there, this is a stage image. The music itself was not conveyed.
Wu Sijing: Have you ever attended the recital of western poets overseas? Zheng Min: I attended several recitations in the 1980s. I read Chinese and others translate it into the local language. I don't know their translation.